Karnataka Lokayukta Santosh Hegde, who is now part of the ten-member committee that will draft the new Lokpal Bill, feels there is a need for strengthening the proposed ombudsman through measures like sanctioning its own police wing to remain impartial in investigations. A former Supreme Court judge, known for his crusade against corruption, Hegde tells Darlington Jose Hector & Ajay Sukumaran that the Lokpal Bill is the first real fight against corruption.
This particular movement against corruption, initiated by Anna Hazare, is being viewed as a major milestone. What is your sense of this movement, considering that you are now part of it?
This need was recommended by the Administrative Reforms Commissions and there were ancillary investigating agencies like CVC, CBI and the like. But why not have an organisation that would directly have an eye on the people at the top and receive complaints against them? The movement is in this context, given the increase in the number of zeroes every time a scam breaks out. Every day one zero is being added, therefore this need. This government has brought out its version of the Lokpal Bill, which is an eyewash, according to me. It merely confines the jurisdiction of the Lokpal to MPs, ministers and the PM. It neither gives the Lokpal suo-moto power nor the ability to act on a complaint given to it by someone.
If it?s an eyewash, how will you give teeth to the Bill?
I cannot talk about that here. Each member (of the committee) will have to discuss it. We want to have a strong Lokpal who can detect, enquire and take that to a logical conclusion.
Without having the power to prosecute as such?
We have the power to prosecute in Karnataka as well, but we have to get sanction from the government. Why a sanction is required with regard to corruption cases, I don?t understand. So one of my suggestions is to remove this sanction.
Will everybody, including the CJI and the PM, come under the purview of the Bill?
As the Bill stands, it looks that way. But I don?t want to comment because, again, I?d rather comment when the committee convenes. I have my own views about the constitutionality. I, for one, want everything to be done within the constitutional framework and from that there should be no deviation. Possibly, the question that is asked is, are you not bypassing and creating a parallel institution by throwing a prepared Bill at the Lok Sabha and then saying, enact it?
The activists are saying our representatives are not doing it. Therefore, we are proposing a draft Bill.
Thereafter, also, it is not binding on the legislature. The power still lies with them and nobody is trying to take away their power. We are only enlightening those members of Parliament that this is a Bill that has come out of consensus of a talk between civil society and government.
The most that will happen is that it will create moral pressure. This is not going to happen everyday because Anna Hazare or the people (who supported him) have other business to do, nor will I be standing in the street watching what procession is going on today. It?s not a question of deviating from the constitution.
Have you met Anna Hazare?
At the time he suggested my name, I had never met him, never spoken to him. I had seen his picture but beyond that I didn?t know anything about him.
Up to what extent can we address the issue through the new proposed Bill?
Look, how many people have really raised their voice against corruption? This is the first such experience in India, after JP Narayan?s movement. Whatever little we get out of it, we should try.
Citizens are concerned about how effective the whole episode will be eventually. What is the least we can expect from this?
That depends on the Lokpals who will be appointed. Building an institution is one major step, giving it a person or persons who are committed to the cause is another. The second one is as important as the first. The hype that has been building for this Lokpal is such that it will be extremely difficult for the appointed Lokpal or Lokpals to live up to it. Therefore, they will have to work hard, be independent, honest, unbiased towards or against any views, open-hearted and people-friendly.
What has been the learning from the Karnataka Lokayukta?
The number of cases we register under the Prevention of Corruption Act may not be very big compared to the number of corrupt officers around. We have reached about 1,400-1,500 cases in the last four and a half years but more than that, the relief that we have given to people has been fantastic. The state has handicapped pension, old age pension, widow pension but in reality not more than 15% of the beneficiaries are getting those benefits.
But on a national level, won?t addressing such complaints be a challenge?
Yes, that is a matter to be discussed. Different people have different views on that matter. I have a suggestion for that, which I will discuss with the committee. I?m aware of the fact that it is a massive challenge because even a postman is a central government employee. But we have to meet it somewhere, find solutions to this.