In this Idea Exchange moderated by Amitabh Sinha of The Indian Express, Union environment minister Prakash Javadekar sees an ‘agenda’ in calling Indian cities among worst polluted, defends Modi government’s stand on NGOs, questions Rahul Gandhi’s aggression, and asserts RSS does not interfere in government.

Why prakash Javadekar?

As minister in charge of the key portfolio of environment, BJP leader Prakash Javadekar has often had to counter the charge that the ministry has gone from being “roadblock ministry” under UPA to “clearance ministry” under NDA. The launch of an air quality index and Cabinet clearance to a law to manage an afforestation fund are some of the things that have kept Javadekar’s ministry in the news. As the NDA government completes one year in office, Javadekar’s has been among the most visible faces highlighting the Centre’s achievements and taking on critics

Amitabh Sinha: The idea behind environmental governance reforms was that the environment ministry will only be a policy-making body, the NGT will address disputes, and a regulator will be created to take care of the appraisal processes. The NGT has been formed but why has a regulator still not been created?

The Supreme Court has also referred to the matter. They want our reactions and the regulator to be established because in environmental governance, what was lacking was enforcement. Many project proponents have come to me and said, put any conditions on us but give permission, because they know that nobody is going to follow up on conditions. Our target is to create a concrete enforcement mechanism for whatever conditions we lay for environmental protection. It can be the regulator mechanism as suggested by the SC or it can be NEMA (national environment management authority) and SEMA (state environment management authority). So, we will do appraisal work. More importantly, a compliance mechanism has been lacking and we are going to come out with a consensus-based decision process. We have discussed this with the states, now it is in the last lap.

Maneesh Chhibber: The common perception is that this is a ‘jumlon ki sarkar’. Every day you hear big, new words and promises.

The government is (also) delivering. Modiji is working hard on price rise, on transparency, corruption, delegation of duties, minorities, SC/STs, farmers. This is not the first year farmers have suffered because of untimely rains, but this was the first time the government responded immediately. In one day, the PM announced four measures. First, the compensation was increased by 50%. Second, the minimum crop damage percentage to avail compensation was relaxed from 50 to 33%. Third, broken rice and grains were to be given the same price; and fourth, we accepted that untimely rains were a natural calamity. So 8.5 lakh crore of credit line has been opened to farmers, a soil health card programme has been launched, one lakh solar agricultural pumps have been installed… I want to talk about what we did at WTO. The Congress had practically surrendered the MSP regime and agreed that 2016 onwards, there will be no MSP. We fought it out, and now the WTO recognises that MSP is the right of India.

Liz Mathew: What would be the major challenge for the government in its second year? Also, how are you going to deal with organisations like the Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh (BMS) and the Swadeshi Jagran Manch (SJM) which are against FDI in retail?

We are clear on FDI in retail and have not changed our stance. In our second year, we will start delivery on schemes such as housing for all, smart cities, etc. The concept and architecture were laid in the first year, the implementation will begin in the second year. Secondly, in many areas, enforcement is a big problem. So, we are changing the laws and even bringing in new laws such as the one for e-rickshaws… There will be fewer laws, but more enforcement.

Liz Mathew: The SJM and other trade unions are holding meetings to plan a strike against FDI.

That is the beauty of democracy. The BMS is like any other organisation. They have freedom, and we respect every voice of dissent.

Muzamil Jaleel: Your government talks of minority schemes. But, on the other hand, Yogi Adityanath and Sadhvi Prachi have been promoted after their hate speeches and made members of the party’s national executive. Why is the BJP talking in two languages?

No, there is only one language — of sabka saath, sabka vikas, of one nation, one people. If there are people who speak something else, don’t publicise their speeches. We immediately told them in no uncertain terms that it is not the party line. India’s diversity is our treasure. We are not Taliban or an Islamic state. India is probably the only country that has not invaded any other country. Though we had 25% of the world’s trade 300 years ago and our people ventured into 50 countries to do business, nobody converted the trade into a rule like the East India Company did.

Coomi Kapoor: Indian cities are the most polluted in the world. What is your ministry doing about that?

All cities of the world are facing challenges in terms of air pollution. An organisation that conducted a study in 1,600 cities in 91 countries surveyed only about 20 cities of India. That is the agenda. We should not fall prey to them. Only last week I was in Europe, where they were discussing pollution in their cities. And it’s not like Delhi’s air quality has worsened in the last year. It has been worsening over the last 10 years, but the media never questioned it. We are not denying the problem. We have started a comprehensive air quality index. We have identified eight parameters and are giving daily bulletins.

Vehicle population is growing in cities. Beijing has seven ring roads. Within two years, we will have a second ring road in Delhi that will help in de-congestion. But people also need to participate, they have to maintain their vehicles, pool cars to their workplace, use public transport more, and cycle to nearby places.

We are planning to make vehicular norms more stringent. Petroleum and transport ministries will be declaring a programme to ensure less vehicular pollution. In the last two months, we started a campaign to reduce biomass burning… even Arvind Kejriwal’s ministers come to my meetings. We have had three meetings and the governments of Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Haryana, Punjab and Rajasthan sat together. Officials from NDMC, DDA, all corporations, police, traffic police, they were all there. We have chalked out a three-month programme that is being implemented now. So there is a visible difference. We have also trained 27,000 sweepers in the dangers of biomass burning.

MANEESH CHHIBBER: You spoke about a survey that reported only 20 Indian cities. So do you see an agenda in the way NGOs work and is that why action is being initiated against them?

No, there are many good NGOs. But we are not going to partner with all NGOs that are working on the ground. Last month, I had a meeting with 200 NGOs. They are doing good work for people, nature, wildlife, forest development and many other campaigns. There are good people all over and we will take them on board.

UNNI RAJEN SHANKER: Pollution is a big issue. So why should you be bothered about who is raising it, and when is it raised ?

Nobody is saying that. The good thing about the Modi government is that we are not in denial mode. We accepted it and are all working together. This new awareness and media coverage are good for the health of the environment.

We will clean our air, our water for ourselves. There was a CAG report which, amidst the 2G, CWG and coal reports, went completely neglected. It was the best CAG report — about water pollution in India. Nearly one-thirds of industrial pollution goes into water bodies. Nearly half of the domestic waste, without proper management, ultimately goes into water bodies. And two-thirds of the agriculture waste goes into the water.

SANDEEP SINGH: When the BJP is so confident about having won the common man’s trust, why this high-voltage campaign about your ‘achievements’ of the last one year?

The government has not launched a high-voltage campaign. The media has launched this campaign with an eye on TRPs. We are just participating.

Liz Mathew: But you have 5,000 jan sabhas…

It is the party’s programme and the government’s duty to reach out to its constituents. And that’s what we are doing. We are telling people that yes, you have elected us with hope, and this is what we have done. I asked each minister to tell me about their three or four important schemes which have been useful to people. Even I didn’t know about some of these schemes. If that is the case with the ministers — because so many ministers are working so passionately towards the goals — the constituents may not be knowing everything.

Priyadarshi Siddhanta: When big industry comes up in mine zones, the tribals who live there get uprooted and bear the brunt of pollution. There are 20 lakh cases of lung cancer in these mining zones, according to Tata Memorial Hospital. How does big industry help them?

I have worked with tribals, reviving tribal projects. The first tribal rights petition was by the Maharashtra BJP in the 1980s. They are exploited — they make glue and other items that are traded cheaply. We have given MSP to minor forest produce. It is a big step in forest welfare. Pollution is an important issue. There are latest technologies and sustainable mining practices. I am asking Coal India not to do scavenging, but to go deep, exhaust one mine, cover it up and then start work on the next mine. Sustainable practices mean improving the road, improving the carrying methodology of mines. The Mines Amendment Act also provides for a development fund — all the proceeds will go towards the development of that particular district. If there’s a big industry, tribals get jobs. Tribal youth also have aspirations. We don’t want to keep tribals permanently poor and oppressed.

Avishek G Dastidar: Many of your ministers say they are proud RSS men. What role does the RSS play?

The RSS’s role is in character building, nation building. They train the swayamsevaks to do their duty. They don’t do anything in the government. Don’t the communist parties have their labour wings, student wings? The RSS is an inspiration, an ideology. You build upon it. We don’t interfere in the BMS, the ABVP doesn’t interfere in the BJP, the RSS doesn’t interfere in any organisation. There are hundreds of organisations that come out of one ideology and they are all working independently. But we are all ideologically connected. And that is a beautiful relationship. So we are friends and partners in progress, partners in mission.

Avishek G Dastidar: Do you also go to the RSS for guidance from time to time?

Everybody has to go to the RSS, whoever likes to.

Apurva: In Delhi’s Anand Vihar, levels of PM 10 and PM 2.5 are close to 500 all the time and the pollution level here is ‘severe’ according to the new classification. What exactly will you do on the ground?

We must see things in context and have that sense of proportion. We are talking about a country that has 17% of the world’s population and 2.5% of the world’s landmass. That is the limitation and we will have problems. But as I said, this problem has not arisen in the last one year, but over the last 10 years. And there is a psychological problem. First, when the problem of pollution was raised, industries were moved out. But pollution still kept increasing. Then people blamed it on the buses, so the court said bring CNG. But still, pollution went up. Then people said it is because we don’t have good public transport. We have the world’s best metro system, yet nothing changes because our population doubles, our vehicle population doubles, our urban migration doubles. So there will be problems. We have to treat all problems with coordination in a democratic set-up.

Maneesh Chhibber: Ever since Rahul Gandhi has come back from his sabbatical, he is getting a lot of traction and the Congress seems to be on the upswing.

I don’t really want to comment on Rahul because we do politics as a mission for 365 days. So, long hibernation and immediate hyperactivity, and then you don’t know what next. I sometimes wonder — he speaks against corporates, and now he is supporting (Aditya) Birla’s food park project. I don’t think Birla is a poor person.

Amitabh Sinha: As of now, our INDC (intended nationally determined contributions) looks the best. But we are conceding a lot of demands that other countries were making. What are we getting in return?

In climate change, we have changed the very course of the debate. India was painted black because we always said no at the end, never reasoned out why we were saying no, we were called naysayers. We have changed the vocabulary of the climate change debate. Now we are always positive. We are acting, but are not under any pressure. A journalist had asked Modiji, in the presence of Obama, if there was any pressure on India because of the US-China climate deal. He said we are not under any pressure from the international community but climate change itself is a pressure for all countries to act. To that end, we upscaled our renewable targets and made them the largest in the world, of 1,75,000 megawatts, and this is a pre-2020 action. We are doing our own thing because Narendra Modi is committed. Al Gore presented his An Inconvenient Truth, our Prime Minister has presented convenient action. He has the experience of 12 years in Gujarat and he changed the nomenclature of our ministry from environment and forests to environment, forests and climate change. But importantly, we are putting pressure on other countries. This time in Berlin, I said we are not begging money for ourselves. We are fighting for developing countries. If there has to be a good accord, there must be public money from the developed world, because of historical responsibility and because they have resources and they have to walk the talk on commitments.

Amitabh Sinha: What are we gaining?

We are gaining two things. We are acting on our own, not under pressure. And secondly, we will gain if we really mitigate climate change through new technologies, new finance, newer benefits. The world benefits, we benefit. We are not doing it alone. We are now networking with least developed countries. I went to and held many bilaterals with SIDS (Small Island Developing States). SIDS were never part of our discourse. Our PM went to Pacific nations. I said India has 40 islands where people are staying. We are a big country with small islands. So we are also SIDS in a way. I said we are BIDS. So we are networking with less developed countries like SIDS, SAARC, like-minded countries, BRICS.

Muzamil Jaleel: You have a coalition government in J&K, where there was a big flood last year. The government there is saying that the Centre only talks, doesn’t give anything. Why has no money been given to J&K?

In Jammu & Kashmir, like in Uttarakhand, you build houses in the riverbed. We must have regulation that you won’t build in riverbeds. As far as funds are concerned, the home ministry has done whatever was possible and there is no complaint now. What Omar (Abdullah) or the Congress says is of little value. We always take every criticism in a positive way. The people of J&K voted for us. Jammu also saw huge floods but they know how it happened. It didn’t happen because of Modi coming in; it happened because of all the many environmental sins committed earlier.

Maneesh Chhibber: Your ally in Maharashtra, the Shiv Sena, is always sniping at you. Is the marriage headed for a divorce?

No, I think after our chief minister announced an alliance in the Municipal corporation elections, you will see only good things coming out of the alliance.

Transcribed by Dipankar Ghose and Mahender Singh Manral