Budget 2024 Highlights: Nirmala Sitharaman presents Interim Budget 2024

Rohan Shravan, Founder and CEO of Tresa Motors says that the government’s dedication to sustainable mobility and emissions’ reduction is worth noting. The primary focus is on the FAME scheme, a crucial initiative providing subsidies for electric vehicles. With FAME II subsidies expected to be depleted this year, the proposed allocation of INR 40,000 – 50,000 crore for FAME III to encompass a broader range of electric vehicles is a positive stride. Sustained government support remains essential for a successful transition to sustainable mobility. As proponents of this industry, we align with the ministry’s objectives and are committed to collaborating with the government to realize this vision. Our request is to extend incentives to Electric Heavy Commercial Vehicle manufacturers and electric component manufacturers as well.

Hitesh Garg, Vice President, and India Managing Director, NXP Semiconductors says that the semiconductor industry in India is awaiting a major boost. He says that emphasizing the promotion of startups and job creation within the semiconductor industry reflects India’s commitment to evolving into a hub for advanced technological expertise, establishing a robust and resilient semiconductor ecosystem.

Nidheesh Saxena, Senior Director of Admissions, GITAM (Deemed to be University):

“Union Budget 2024 is expected to play a crucial role in sculpting a tax framework that supports educational advancements, addresses financial challenges for students, and contributes to the goal of achieving a higher GER, ultimately fostering economic growth through a well-educated and skilled workforce. He stresses the need for comprehensive teacher training programs, ensuring educators are equipped with the necessary skills to leverage modern tools effectively. All eyes are on India for the economic growth that is expected to scale the foreign investments in the country. Allocating resources to education is highlighted as an investment in the minds and aspirations of the nation’s youth.”

Greg Moran, CEO and Co-Founder Zoomcar:

Last year’s budget paved a path to higher adoption of EVs in India resulting in a sharp shift of customer mental models to make more greener & smarter choices. With the rise of marketplaces and digitisation in India, it is becoming a convenience-first nation that is also setting high benchmarks globally. This year as a public listed company, we at Zoomcar anticipate the Union Budget 2024 to pave the way for innovative policies that accelerate sustainable mobility solutions and drive economic resilience which will help customers with cost-effective solutions and mobility apps to support the evolution of transportation in the automobile industry.

On the upcoming day, Sitharaman is poised to deliver her sixth consecutive budget, matching the feat of former Prime Minister Morarji Desai, who also presented six budgets consecutively. If she accomplishes this, she will be the second Finance Minister to achieve such a milestone. Morarji Desai, during his tenure as the Finance Minister, presented a total of five annual budgets and one interim budget from 1959 to 1964.

Read More Here: Nirmala Sitharaman etches name in history!

Finance Minister Nirmala Sitharaman will present the Interim Budget 2024 on February 1 at 11:00 am.

Read More Here: Date, time and where to watch FinMin Nirmala Sitharaman’s budget speech live

Anshuman Das, CEO and Co-founder, Careernet said, “In the upcoming interim budget, we anticipate a strategic yet low-key approach to navigate the path to the election. The government will likely prioritise essential spending with minimal policy disruptions. The imperative lies in making the Indian tax system more investor-friendly, reducing corporate tax rates for new manufacturing ventures, and promoting exports and R&D through tax incentives.

It’s noteworthy that Bangalore (BLR) dominates 35% of India‘s IT industry. The government must enhance the infrastructure in Bangalore and similar IT hubs; otherwise, the entire IT industry in India may face challenges. It should also look to promote diversity in the IT sector, incentivising companies with a substantial female workforce and considering special benefits.

Additionally, incentives for companies hiring and training freshers are vital to prevent wage inflation and maintain India’s competitiveness. Rather than direct government spending on IT skilling, redirecting the budget through companies for more meaningful upskilling is recommended. Providing employees with direct tax breaks for upskilling and training expenses is crucial for continuous self-upgradation of the workforce.

Our expectations include increased allocations for MSMEs, agriculture, education, healthcare, housing, and urban development. Strengthening manufacturing and higher infrastructure spending are essential to address growth challenges. Industry-friendly labour policies, coupled with restricting interference from labour inspectors could be crucial government measures.”

Catch the live-action on Parliament’s budget session today by clicking on this link:

Dr Swagatesh Bastia, Co-Founder, Alleviate Pain Clinic said, “We anticipate the government to prioritize health in the upcoming budget, allocating substantial funds towards infrastructure, research and development is crucial for advancing non-invasive medical capabilities. Additionally, increased investment in screening initiatives and national health programs is vital for early detection and prevention of a particular disease. To prioritize the non-invasive treatments it is necessary to make insurance and healthcare schemes accessible to all, ensuring universal healthcare coverage.”

Imran Kagalwala, Co Founder at UNIX India:

“We urge the government to consider elevating duties and taxes on imported cell phone accessories. With the existing 20% duty already in place, the addition of anti-dumping duties on all mobile phone accessories would be a game-changer. This move can enhance production and manufacturing within India. If we see more duties on these accessories it becomes a win-win for ‘Make in India.’

This not only helps us thrive but also gives a big boost to the market. As we look ahead to the 2024-2025 budget, we’re hopeful for policies that create an environment favoring local production, making India a powerhouse in mobile accessories manufacturing.”

Financial Express online gets in touch with experts from Deloitte. Here’s what they had to say about their expectations from Budget 2024-25.

Watch video here: Pre-Budget Expectations with Deloitte

Aloke Bajpai, Co-founder & Group CEO, ixigo:

“The past year has been extremely exciting for the travel & tourism sector; especially with the government’s increasing focus on boosting domestic & inbound travel. India is on track to be the fastest-growing aviation market in the world in the next decade. The rising trend of domestic air travel from tier 2,3,4 cities is encouraging, and we hope to see the budget continue to allocate resources for the development of infrastructure, technology, and safety measures at existing and new airports in these cities under the UDAN scheme. Spiritual tourism is poised to be a key focus this year, and we anticipate more measures aimed at enhancing infrastructure, and accessibility, including last-mile connectivity in spiritual and cultural hubs across India. The Indian Government has been actively developing religious destinations and pilgrimage centers to encourage spiritual tourism under the Pilgrimage Rejuvenation and Spiritual Heritage Augmentation Drive (PRASAD Scheme). This effort has led to a remarkable transformation in Varanasi’s tourism sector, primarily driven by the revitalized Kashi Vishwanath corridor and the Central government’s renewed commitment to promoting religious tourism. Since its opening in December 2021, Kashi Vishwanath Dham has attracted an unprecedented 100 million visitors. In contrast, the number of visitors had previously been a mere 8 million before the renovations.

Similarly, it is anticipated that with the recent inauguration of the Ram Mandir in Ayodhya and the recent launch of the new Ayodhya airport, Ayodhya may attract similar footfalls of visitors. Such steps will undoubtedly improve connectivity in regions where trains or buses may be the primary mode of transportation. Furthermore, considering that aviation turbine fuel (ATF) constitutes a significant portion of operational costs for airlines, any waivers or support for the airline sector would greatly benefit the industry. Bringing the Aviation Turbine Fuel (ATF) cost down to pre-pandemic levels presents significant opportunities for India’s aviation sector, serving as a crucial factor in improving air travel accessibility. In 2023, we also witnessed a surge in travellers opting for visa-free destinations, indicating a growing preference for hassle-free and convenient international travel experiences. Simplifying visa requirements to encourage visa-free entry for tourists visiting India is another action point that can significantly enhance foreign tourist arrivals. Overall, we look forward to budgetary measures that foster growth, innovation, and sustainability within the travel and hospitality sector, ultimately strengthening India’s position as a premier travel destination”.

Mukesh Batra, Founder & Chairman of Dr Batra’s® Group of Companies said, “Embracing a vision for a healthier India, we must recognize the pivotal role of healthcare in our nation’s prosperity. The Economic Survey 2023 underscores the need for a substantial increase in healthcare expenditure, projecting a rise from 2.1% to over 2.5% of GDP by 2025. As we chart the course for Budget FY24, I advocate a holistic approach that transcends traditional boundaries. In the journey towards a robust and inclusive healthcare system, alternative healthcare sectors play a crucial role. Alternative medicine, with its holistic approach, emphasizes preventive healthcare. It targets holistic well-being, stresses prevention through lifestyle changes, adopts an individualized approach, and employs stress reduction, natural therapies, and healthy habit promotion. Patient empowerment encourages proactive well-being.

We need a big change to address the specific challenges healthcare sector face. More money in the budget could make healthcare more accessible, not just in big cities but also in smaller ones. Furthermore, our perspective needs to be broaden to encompass healthcare insurance, medical supplies, telemedicine, and medical tourism. By strategically allocating resources to these sectors, we can fortify the foundations of a healthier and economically vibrant nation. In the pursuit of a thriving India, let Budget FY24 be a catalyst for positive change in skilling, education, and health, laying the groundwork for a future where healthcare is not just a service but a fundamental right for all.”

Vinayak Kamath, Co-founder of Hearth Ventures:

“As the budget approaches, our expectations for rural development are focused on crucial areas such as infrastructural improvements, livelihood enhancement, export potential, compliance, and cultural representation. We foresee improvements in rural roads, energy, and agricultural supply chains, as well as an emphasis on improving off-farm rural livelihoods. A focused emphasis is also expected to promote Indian crafts, notably of handmade crafts through govt initiated programmes such as ODOP and ONDC, exports and funding to promote India‘s cultural legacy at international trade shows. For startups and MSMEs, simplify compliance without compromising governance. This budget should serve as a catalyst for inclusive and long-term rural and economic development, meeting rural communities’ different needs and ambitions.”

Mohan Subrahmanya, Country Leader, Insight Enterprise:

“India is positioning itself at the forefront globally on various frontiers, most notably the technology industry. As the IT industry eagerly awaits the 2024 Union Budget, I look forward to seeing a budgetary plan that aligns with this ever-evolving technological landscape.

With breakthroughs in digital transformation and talent at the heart of it, India is becoming a global force to be reckoned with. This year, we are eagerly looking forward to a strategic distribution of resources with digital infrastructure taking top priority and improved incentives for research, upskilling, and creation of innovation hubs. While the imminent data protection bill looms, the upcoming budget announcement will be seen as a pivotal moment to enhance the stance on securing sensitive information. I anticipate increased funds for crucial aspects such as cybersecurity, along with robust support for emerging technologies in the realm of 5G, AI, and the Internet of Things, accompanied by tax revisions aimed at stimulating IT exports. Alongside, monetary advancements in research, development, and AI will accelerate growth overall for the country and be a steady move towards strengthening our position in the global arena.”

Shital Gupta – Chief Sales Officer (Plywood) of Greenpanel Industries Ltd:

“In the upcoming budget, a focus on the Housing and Construction sector can be a game-changer for the plywood industry. Increased allocations for housing projects and rural infrastructure development can drive demand for plywood in furniture and construction. Emphasizing quality with budgetary support for certification initiatives will boost consumer confidence. Sustainable forest management practices ensure a reliable raw material supply, promoting environmental responsibility. Budgetary provisions for research, technology adoption, and skill development can modernize the industry, improving efficiency, product quality, and addressing the skilled labor shortage. This strategic approach aligns with economic growth and industry sustainability.”

Sanjay Borkar, CEO & Co Founder, FarmERP:

“The Agriculture Accelerator Fund in the previous union budget provided significant support to AgTech startups. In anticipation of the upcoming budget, we are hopeful for policies that not only streamline regulatory processes but also encourage cross-border collaborations, fostering a global, collaborative approach. The key to advancing our agricultural sector lies in government initiatives that incentivize cutting-edge technologies, encompassing sustainable and precision farming, AI-driven analytics, and smart irrigation systems. By nurturing innovation, sustainability, and digitalization, the budget has the potential to propel agriculture into a future marked by resilience and efficiency.

The Union Budget has the opportunity to address Food Security, emphasizing an affordable and easily accessible food supply, aligning with the World Health Organization’s Zero Hunger initiative. A favourable budget should allocate resources for agricultural technology R&D, focusing on solutions to address evolving agribusiness needs. Incentives for organic farming and a comprehensive approach to ensuring food supply accessibility and affordability are vital for a sustainable global food future. regenerative agriculture practices and climate tech adoption interventions require additional support from the coming union budget. The Union Budget stands as a pivotal moment to sow the seeds of agricultural prosperity, cultivating a future where innovation and sustainability flourish.”

Vijay Laxmi A. Ambala, SEBI registered Research Analyst and Co-Founder of Stock Market Today (SMT):

“There are high expectations from the upcoming Union Budget, particularly with regards to the farming sector, Kisan Vikas (MSP), salary tax slabs, infrastructure development, and logistics. In addition, I expect key announcements related to funding for women and child welfare. However, I am most optimistic about favorable tax relief for individuals purchasing their first house or land and the introduction of special Production Linked Incentive (PLI) Schemes that will further the cause of the nation’s ‘Made In India’ movement to create new employment opportunities.

There’s also a strong possibility of a GST hike on certain products, as the government aims to meet the targeted deficit of 5.5% of GDP. Since this is the last Budget of the ruling government before the election, most announcements could be directed to cater to the needs of the majority of the population. For instance, the salaried employees hopeful for an increase in their gross income may find some respite from the upcoming budget. Though direct income tax rate cuts might be constrained due to fiscal considerations, salaried individuals could also expect relief in the form of an increase in tax-free ceilings for transport, housing, and their leave travel allowances. Similarly, a streamlined monthly GST input credit timeline and filing process could prove beneficial. Given the rising inflation levels of the country, I look forward to favorable proposals like increasing employer PF contribution from 12% to 15%, which would help working individuals mobilize more money toward their retirement funds and secure their financial future.”

Arjun Bajaj, Director – Videotex:

“The previous year’s budget had heightened industry expectations by reducing import duties on open-cell components, a key element in television manufacturing, by 2.5 per cent. While this move initially attracted major players with optimistic plans for domestic open-cell manufacturing, no substantial progress has materialized. Despite these developments, the industry still heavily relies on imports for open cells. Moreover, open-cell prices exhibit significant volatility, fluctuating between 10% and 800%. The supply chain for raw materials remains disrupted, leading to increased freight charges and capital investment. We anticipate that the government will take the necessary steps to streamline the supply chain.

In contrast to the smartphone industry, which benefits from various government support, PLI schemes, and manufacturing incentives, the television manufacturing sector, a substantial part of the economy, is yet to receive any advantages from PLI schemes or similar incentives. Additionally, the Indian industry sees considerable export potential, particularly in the Middle East and neighbouring countries. Government support in this regard could propel industry growth, create more job opportunities, and contribute positively to the economy.

Furthermore, TVs larger than 32 inches are currently classified under the luxury segment, attracting a GST of 28%. However, in the present scenario, TVs are no longer just luxury items; they have become essential household components. Reducing the GST on these larger TVs could lower prices, potentially boosting sales and fostering growth in the television industry.”

Hunch poll reveals that job opportunities hold substantial importance for Gen Z in the Union Budget 2024-25:

“As the Union Budget takes center stage in this pivotal election year for India, all eyes are eagerly fixed on the much-anticipated Budget 2024. A recent poll posted by one of the users on the social discovery app Hunch reveals expectations the nation’s young generation has from it. According to the poll results, 60.9% of 3250 Gen Z are eagerly anticipating a substantial surge in job opportunities, emphasizing the current job market scenario.

22.6% of Gen Z users of the Hunch app have expressed expectations for potential tax cuts, while 16.5% have emphasized the crucial importance of measures ensuring job security. This shows that today’s youth are particularly mindful of seeking tax incentives and ensuring protection against economic downturns and job losses. These diverse expectations underscore a spectrum of individual concerns, collectively indicating a shared aspiration for – economic stability. Tax cuts and assurances of stable employment opportunities are pivotal components in realizing this overarching objective.”

P V Shyam Sunder, Director, Concept and Technology, at Evolv28:

Our expectations focus is on strengthening healthcare infrastructure, to address the diverse healthcare needs of India. Streamlining GST policy for healthcare startups. Encouraging cutting edge technology focussed healthcare frameworks for Patent and business continuity.

In view of increased focus on Mental wellness post Pandemic, with a primary emphasis on promoting mind wellness, the initiatives should facilitate access to capital to strengthen the healthcare ecosystem, and leveraging technology to establish world-class healthcare systems. As health– tech startups, we anticipate that the 2024 Union Budget would foster an atmosphere conducive to digital healthcare innovation. Crucially, we argue for R&D innovation support, ease of Patenting and incentives in order to elevate India’s reputation as a leading global R&D powerhouse.

Financial support for the integration of future technologies such as AI and telemedicine, as well as investments in digital infrastructure, cybersecurity, and data protection, are critical components aligned with the National Digital Health Mission’s aims. We advocate for the creation of innovative healthcare models that harness technology and skilled labor, with the goal of achieving cost-effectiveness and broad accessibility across income levels.

The industry advocates for favorable policy to address inflationary concerns, including measures such as lowering customs tariffs on raw materials, eliminating the additional 5% health cess, and enhancing export incentives under the RoDTEP system. Simplifying compliance burdens, application procedures, supervisory regimes, lending structures, assuring pricing transparency, and easing cross-border commerce will boost local manufacturing, R&D, and address supply chain difficulties in the health-tech sector.

We anticipate a budget emphasizing processing unit development, awareness creation, robust market linkages, and policies supporting technology and infrastructure. This approach aims to foster a favorable business environment and drive sustainable growth in the agricultural sector.

Rakesh Kaul, Managing Director, Livpure:

“As we approach the Union Budget 2024, the retail industry eagerly anticipates a budget that acknowledges its pivotal role and provides essential incentives for growth. We hope for reduced taxes to alleviate financial burdens, relaxation of compliance requirements to streamline operations. We are looking forward to expansion of Production Linked Incentive (PLI) schemes that would further boost manufacturing and innovation. Additionally, a pivotal reduction in logistics costs, ensuring seamless goods movement, is anticipated to greatly amplify operational efficiency. We look forward to a budget that fosters a conducive environment for the retail sector’s sustained development and competitiveness.”

Amith Agarwal, Co-founder & Director, Staragri:

I have two key expectations from this year’s budget. Firstly, implementing a special incentive tax break or a tax holiday for agritech start-ups for 10-15 years would stimulate the entry of technology-driven players into addressing India‘s agricultural challenges. This measure is poised to foster innovation and progress in the agri-tech sector.

Secondly, similar to the allocation for urban infrastructure projects, the government should channel capital expenditure towards fortifying rural and farm infrastructure. The provision of low-cost funds for constructing modern warehouses, essential for storing grains and commodities, is crucial given the capital-intensive nature of this business. The budget should explore innovative measures such as tax breaks and attractive depreciation rates to incentivize further investments in building a farm infrastructure comparable to the best in the world.

Given that this is the final budget of the current government, I anticipate the introduction of bold policies that will have a lasting impact on the modernization of Indian agriculture, paving the way for sustained growth and development in the sector.

Dr. MAHESH, CEO, CREATICITY:

“There needs to be a significant impetus given to furniture as a category, and this could be on both the manufacturing and retail fronts. In terms of manufacturing, more encouragement is welcome and much awaited, particularly for small to mid-scale enterprises. The establishment of furniture parks should be given an accelerated thrust, enabling Indian players to achieve scale and efficiency. Furniture could be viewed as an essential item category, with tax structures changed accordingly. Such a move would bring about a transformative shift, strongly and sizably organizing the furniture category. This will pave the way for greater contributions to the exchequer and fuel the organized growth of this category, which ranks just next to food, shelter, and clothing in terms of necessity”

Ramesh S Ramakrishnan, Chairman of Transworld Group says that the Interim Budget for 2024 will prioritize the advancement of infrastructure, with a primary emphasis on Railways and Roads. Special attention will be directed towards the development of infrastructure in semi-urban areas, as well as tier 2 and tier 3 cities. The introduction of policies and incentives aimed at fostering significant growth and the advancement of clean energy resources is anticipated. Furthermore, he said that he foresees an enhancement of public-private partnerships to promote coastal shipping as an energy-efficient and cost-effective mode of transportation.

Harish Trivedi, CEO, Cancer Treatment Services International – South Asia:

“Ahead of the interim budget 2024, while I appreciate the PMJAY, and holistic healthcare approach of the GOI, yet a lot needs to be done for the growing chronic disease burden for a country as large as India as we are on cusp of Chronic disease burden especially disease like cancer which growing @12% and will require a serious approach. I would expect that the Budget allocation needs to be at least 3.5 to 4% of the GDP with a committed focus on Preventive healthcare architecture which emphasis on creation of Healthcare Infrastructure in Rural and underserved areas to improve healthcare accessibility, availability, and affordability. GST and Custom duty relief for the advance medical technology is a must as this has helped India becoming a key Medical Value travel destination for more than 130 countries. Incentivise Private sector for more PPP healthcare models which can help Govt reduce chronic disease burden faster by leveraging the sectoral efficient capabilities. Inclusion of newer therapies in Govt/Private Insurance coverage is must to make real benefits of PMJAY to the needy population. Additionally, the continued focus on investment in AI and other healthcare technology like telemedicine through capex needs to be encouraged continuously. It’s also high time that the Govt creates a mechanism like PLI for Private healthcare sector as well.”

Sachin Patel, CMD, Swaminarayan Group:

While 2023 might seem like an exceptional year where realty was at its peak, it was actually making up for the loss incurred during the pandemic. And the coming year is the time to reach newer heights. For the 2024-25 budget, there is an urge for the government to introduce tax incentives for first-time homebuyers and reconsider GST implementation on under-construction properties. Such measures are anticipated to lower property rates, supporting demand. The sector to be given an ‘Industry‘ status continues to be a central focus. Achieving this will attract more equity investments and facilitate debt restructuring. Additionally, there is a need for the repo rate to be lowered as it will lead to a reduction in home loan interest rates and the home affordability factor can rise. There is a strong emphasis on augmenting investments in sustainable infrastructure under the PM Gati Shakti National Master Plan, which is revolutionizing urban planning and connectivity. Bringing in game-changing factors such as renewable energy and green frameworks for roads, railways, airports, and ports will be a boost to the sector.

Overall, government intervention in the forthcoming Budget is a crucial opportunity to propel the sector towards the growth trajectory that could bring in a remarkable demand.

Sachin Patel, CMD, Swaminarayan Group:

While 2023 might seem like an exceptional year where realty was at its peak, it was actually making up for the loss incurred during the pandemic. And the coming year is the time to reach newer heights. For the 2024-25 budget, there is an urge for the government to introduce tax incentives for first-time homebuyers and reconsider GST implementation on under-construction properties. Such measures are anticipated to lower property rates, supporting demand. The sector to be given an ‘Industry‘ status continues to be a central focus. Achieving this will attract more equity investments and facilitate debt restructuring. Additionally, there is a need for the repo rate to be lowered as it will lead to a reduction in home loan interest rates and the home affordability factor can rise. There is a strong emphasis on augmenting investments in sustainable infrastructure under the PM Gati Shakti National Master Plan, which is revolutionizing urban planning and connectivity. Bringing in game-changing factors such as renewable energy and green frameworks for roads, railways, airports, and ports will be a boost to the sector.

Overall, government intervention in the forthcoming Budget is a crucial opportunity to propel the sector towards the growth trajectory that could bring in a remarkable demand.

Sachin Patel, CMD, Swaminarayan Group:

While 2023 might seem like an exceptional year where realty was at its peak, it was actually making up for the loss incurred during the pandemic. And the coming year is the time to reach newer heights. For the 2024-25 budget, there is an urge for the government to introduce tax incentives for first-time homebuyers and reconsider GST implementation on under-construction properties. Such measures are anticipated to lower property rates, supporting demand. The sector to be given an ‘Industry‘ status continues to be a central focus. Achieving this will attract more equity investments and facilitate debt restructuring. Additionally, there is a need for the repo rate to be lowered as it will lead to a reduction in home loan interest rates and the home affordability factor can rise. There is a strong emphasis on augmenting investments in sustainable infrastructure under the PM Gati Shakti National Master Plan, which is revolutionizing urban planning and connectivity. Bringing in game-changing factors such as renewable energy and green frameworks for roads, railways, airports, and ports will be a boost to the sector.

Overall, government intervention in the forthcoming Budget is a crucial opportunity to propel the sector towards the growth trajectory that could bring in a remarkable demand.

Akhilesh Shukla, CEO & Founder Messy Desk Media which runs enterprise IT commerce platform TechShots:

“The interim budget poses an opportunity to maintain the much-needed push on India’s startup trajectory, fuelled by innovations in deep tech and emerging technologies. India can be a beacon of GenAI development, at par with forerunners US and China. What is required from the policy side is continuing support, since the interim budget is more about maintaining resilient progress. But seeing the government’s push for Atmanirbhar Bharat and innovation without boundaries, we expect some mention for the sector from the Honourable Finance Minister. As a tech entrepreneur, I would vouch for simpler paperwork for startups during selection for projects or services. This would save time and resources for them, and also encourage more participation from them.”